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Rally Lada question

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Mabrouk



Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: Rally Lada question Reply with quote

I've been planning on buying a Lada rally race car from Hungary in a few months but since I'm moving to Ft. Drum which is just 30 minutes from Canada I'm thinking of building my own G2 car. I'm completely new to Ladas so I was wondering where people get their parts for their rally cars so I can figure out the difference in price, secondly it would be better to get to know Ladas if I start from the ground up. Any help will very much be appreciated.
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GadgetBoy



Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 924
Location: Belfast, N. Ireland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: Reply with quote

A Lada to rally or a Lada rally car?

There's a world of difference.

The proper (factory) Lada sedan rally car (2105) is a VFTS and it is a very exotic beast. You won't get spares in Canada or the Americas for that matter. Be warned - there are a lot of fakes around. For every 100 cars that claim to be a VFTS I would say only 1 is genuine.

Bar major body panels virtually nothing is "standard". Spares will be eye-wateringly expensive and only available in Eastern Europe/Russia.
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Mabrouk



Joined: 17 Mar 2012
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:21 am Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been looking at the VFTS cars from Hungary, I've heard of VFTS kits and I'm not opposed to it. I'd like something similar to the factory race car but I'll gladly do what I can to make somewhat of a replica as long as I have the important suspension bits, I'm really curious if the actual race parts are hard to find and very expensive because the price of the cars I'm prospecting are about 20k USD average.
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derekvincent



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently I am running the only know NA rally Lada in Canada... It was one of the two original Lada Canada Factory cars and is a 1991 21083i 1500....

As far as bringing a rally car over to Canada you are going to have to be very careful.... There will be a very good chance the cage design will not conform to the Canadian requirements and since your car is not logged booked in NA you will most likely require a lot of rework or cutting it out completely...


You will also want to check what class the car you looking to bring over will be placed... since I do not think they ever sold the cars (VTFS) in Canada you may end up in open....

I am not sure what Lada race parts you are looking for in Canada but will be expensive and whatever you can get in Hungry since that is where you will be ordering and shipping them from most likley... There are some places to still Lada get supplies but nothing race oriented. The best I have seen is a set HotBits suspension...


If you have more questions let me know and I can see what I can do, also I can also point you out to someone on the CARS or a regional board to get specific answer to your question. Without checking first you might end up importing a car you can not race....

Derek
www.rallysputnik.com
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GGB



Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

GadgetBoy wrote:
The proper (factory) Lada sedan rally car (2105) is a VFTS and it is a very exotic beast. You won't get spares in Canada or the Americas for that matter. Be warned - there are a lot of fakes around. For every 100 cars that claim to be a VFTS I would say only 1 is genuine.

Bar major body panels virtually nothing is "standard". Spares will be eye-wateringly expensive and only available in Eastern Europe/Russia.


One correction in your post and that is the VFTS was not a factory effort. The whole kit was developed by a private engineering company in Lithuania, the only thing AutoVaz did was supply them the cars and stock drivelines that they could modify under an undisclosed agreement for engineering services on future cars. You are correct in saying that there is nothing "standard" about the cars, for example they used Mahel (sp?) racing pistons, crankshaft, rods & cams were machined out of solid pieces of steel at VFTS. The 4 disk breaks & calipers were sourced from Fiat the 131 Abarth model and so on. The only stock part on the motor for example is the block and the head casting as required by the FIA at that time, these cars were to be run in Gr. S which never materialised after Gr. B was cancelled. To replicate a proper VFTS car (not what you see in videos from Hungary) you are looking at spending close to $50-60,000 not including cost of the car. There is alot of fakes/replicas (most have just the body kit on them) as there was only 250 actual VFTS models ever made to meet with the FIA homologation numbers. Actualy there was only 250 total kits of parts to make the rally cars and out of that there were about 100 cars assembled and rest was sold to privateers with $ to build their own cars.

Mabrouk wrote:
I've been looking at the VFTS cars from Hungary,........the price of the cars I'm prospecting are about 20k USD average.


That is about right amount $ for a proper replica with a proper engine and transmission. In 1995 when I was in Russia to visit the factory, the parts for the Gr. A engine in the Samara model were approx. $10K US and another $5K for the 5spd dog box transmission from Lada or a proper competition 6spd was around $8K. From speaking to a factory engineer he stated that a proper engine & trans for a VFTS would cost in the range of $15K - 20K US. As "proper" poarts for a true VFTS are non existent anymore everything would have to be custome made or sourced. There is a lot of speed shops in Hungary that build rally & race stuff for the Lada, but even they are slowly makeing more stuff for the Subaru, Mitsu Lancer, Golfs,etc. as the population gets more money and therfore better stuff for rallying. They were popular at one time do to need ($$$) not necessarly want.

derekvincent wrote:
Currently I am running the only know NA rally Lada in Canada... It was one of the two original Lada Canada Factory cars and is a 1991 21083i 1500....

As far as bringing a rally car over to Canada you are going to have to be very careful.... There will be a very good chance the cage design will not conform to the Canadian requirements and since your car is not logged booked in NA you will most likely require a lot of rework or cutting it out completely...

You will also want to check what class the car you looking to bring over will be placed... since I do not think they ever sold the cars (VTFS) in Canada you may end up in open....


Actually there was never a 1991 FI Samara. That car was the test model that GM used to develop the fuel injection system. When we ran the team for Lada Canada that car was for the show circuit as we could not legaly race it in production class (1750 at that time). We used the 1994 model (a few cars in '94 were available with FI in Canada) to rally which was a few years later totalled by Andrew Cormie-Picard (who owned both cars at one time).

On the cage you are correct, as some euro cages are still aluminum or spec of steel & diameter & thickness that we do not allow here, so a very good chance that it would have to be replaced.

The engines are based on the 1600 block and even if it was original VFTS that he found they had the AutoVaz stamp & serial number on the blocks so therefore it should not be an issue to run in Gr. 2. The transmissions are open in Gr. 2 (other than sequential is not allowed I belive don't have current ruel book in front) so that would not be an issue either.

I have been planning a similar project, but not to rally as it would be too expensive on parts / maintenance alone, mine will be strictly for driving on the street and an occassional Solo II (parking lot cone crunching). If you truly want to rally for rally sake you are better off getting something far more common that would cost you way less to buy and maintain and still give you the grin factor. I have just acquired a BMW 318 ttis to rally and am in the process of stripping it bear to start the seam welding and rollcage install (not common in NA but lots of people rallying them in France and Germany so lots of parts available).
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derekvincent



Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Actually there was never a 1991 FI Samara. That car was the test model that GM used to develop the fuel injection system. When we ran the team for Lada Canada that car was for the show circuit as we could not legaly race it in production class (1750 at that time). We used the 1994 model (a few cars in '94 were available with FI in Canada) to rally which was a few years later totalled by Andrew Cormie-Picard (who owned both cars at one time).


I am interested to here more.... We are running one of the ACP cars... not sure I have heard about him totaling one.... I heard that the original one died a different death... Dealing with this cars reminds of cold war spy stories... lost of misinformation... I believe our log book lists it as a 91 but I know no one ever heard of a 91 FI....

One cool thing in Canada is I think this is the longest running original Rally factory car.... not quick now.. perfect beginner car and everyone love her...
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GGB



Joined: 27 Aug 2009
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: Reply with quote

derekvincent wrote:
Quote:
Actually there was never a 1991 FI Samara. That car was the test model that GM used to develop the fuel injection system. When we ran the team for Lada Canada that car was for the show circuit as we could not legaly race it in production class (1750 at that time). We used the 1994 model (a few cars in '94 were available with FI in Canada) to rally which was a few years later totalled by Andrew Cormie-Picard (who owned both cars at one time).


I am interested to here more.... We are running one of the ACP cars... not sure I have heard about him totaling one.... I heard that the original one died a different death... Dealing with this cars reminds of cold war spy stories... lost of misinformation... I believe our log book lists it as a 91 but I know no one ever heard of a 91 FI....

One cool thing in Canada is I think this is the longest running original Rally factory car.... not quick now.. perfect beginner car and everyone love her...


I am not 100% sure who all owned the 2 cars but ACP was the last person before one of them was involved in an incident in a rally (again this is what I have been told as at that time I was away from the rally world, if you have other info I would love to hear it as well Very Happy ) and was not repairable. He then switched to the one you are using to finish off the season after which he switched to the Mitsu EVO IV. He was not the original owner that Lada sold the cars to it was a young kid that never even rallied one in a navigational rally. Originally the plan was to build a brand new 1996 car for Gr. 2 class (basically a Gr. A car) the '94 was going to be updated to Gr. 2 as well and the '91 was to be facelifted to look like the newer models and used for autoshows and displays. We were litteraly a signature away from the deal being done when word came from Russa no more spending money and slowly staff at the Lada HQ in Toronto and the wearhouse in Montreal started to get laid off and Russian engineers here started to get recalled to go back home. The car counts for shipment got reduced significantly and it ws the first signs that Lada Canada may not survive.

One thing unique with your car (& the '94) is that it is the only production class (when it was so classified) Lada Samara ever rallied in the world. Lada factory only produced parts for Gr. A for the Samara as the FIA production class was to restrictive and they could not successfuly compete in same. I am only aware of Gr. A Samaras (both in 1300cc and 1500cc classes) that rallied all over Europe, personally I have never heard of a production class one other than here.

Also don't forget that it is not a true factory effort in a way it was strictly a Lada Canada effort, because the higher ups in Russia basically told the LC CEO/president here that if he makes the brand look bad (anything but winning the championship was going to make them look bad) he would be recalled back to Russia and another person installed as CEO/president.

There is a few other factory cars floating around some one had a Toyota Canada Celica (1984??) a number of years ago that Taisto Hainnonen (sp?) won a number of Canadian Championships here with. The only problem is that no one is using these anymore and you guys are rallying yours and I give you credit for keeping it going, I wish more people did what you guys are doing.
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